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Post by christhecynic on Mar 15, 2016 11:00:58 GMT -5
Kim and Ron are both heroes and so don't belong in this category. Eric doesn't either as he's a villain, but: Josh and Zita both dated members of Team Possible. Yori and Tara both were interested in Ron and Ron would have been interested in them if not for the fact he didn't realize they had each had a thing for him until it was too late. Ron was interested in Amelia and, at one point, Bonnie. Kim had a pining for Hirotaka thing going on. I'd probably knock that down to Josh, Zita, Yori, and Tara since those were the cases where the feeling was mutual. I'm not sure if Ron gets more because the writers liked the "Ron can't tell when someone was totally into him," joke enought to use it not once but twice, or because he's Ron and that comes with special privileges, or because of the So The Drama explanation (Kim intimidates guys), or because Kim --not being clueless-- would pick up on the signs and start a relationship which would have repercussions in a way Yori and Tara's interest in Ron didn't, or something else. - - - Honestly I like all four of the characters. Josh and Kim are a good fit because Josh is laid back enough not to be intimidated by Kim* and he's actually a good fit into her life given that he's the kind of person who is totally up for being half of a unicorn with Ron to go trick-or-treating even though they're in high school. Tara doesn't get much characterization but she comes across as nice, she stands up to Bonnie on Kim's behalf, and given that she likes Ron when he's himself instead of momentarily popular she's kind of ahead of Kim on that front. (Kim who once made a distinction between boys and Ron.) Yori is similar to Tara in seeing the good in Ron as he is when others don't, she might be a bit over the top about it though. Zita we basically got one episode of since Grudge Match was spent trying, and until the end failing, to actually have the time to meet her. She's sort of the least characterized of the bunch as a result, but she's proactive, she cares about her friends, and she's ready to slip into hero mode even when it might get her brainfried. She's sort of Kimish. Plus she scores well on the fitting into the larger network. She doesn't have any friction with Kim or Monique, obviously she finds something to like in Felix given who she ends up with, so it seems like she's a good fit for Ron given that she fits not just him personally but also his friends (thus no "Choose between your friends and your girlfriend/boyfriend" type drama.) Anyway those are some thoughts on my part. Josh, Zita, Tara, Yori: discuss. - *Though it is notable that the time he asks her out is when he was calling up for other reasons, specifically to check if she was ok after a nasty looking fall, so he doesn't seem very proactive either. Actually, he's a bit Ron-like in that he doesn't necesarily pick up on the signs Kim has an interest in him even when they're shoved in his face every time she walks to Latin class.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2016 14:06:55 GMT -5
This is very well thought out. I agree with you on this..... Now he may not seem protective in that " Boyfriend, kick yer ass", kind of way. But protective in that " male and female soldiers in a combat sitch" sort of way. I got your back, you got mine. However, no can argue that he cares more for Kim than he does for himself. Remember how many times he's risked his own life for her?
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Post by neosaiyanangel on Mar 15, 2016 20:07:27 GMT -5
As I've said in another thread, I feel bad for Josh. In the fandom, fanfics especially, he gets a really bad rep. There have been a good number of fanfics where Josh was the straight-up villain doing intensely horrible things, or he was the person Kim was cheating on Ron/Shego/whoever with. Seriously, what did the poor guy do to deserve that sort of treatment?
Tara's lack of characterization makes me sad. She seems like she'd be a unique bubbly character. Alas, all we really got is that she's bubbly, a bit ditzy, and doesn't judge people by looks. It'd be fun to tackle her if I could just stay focused writing-wise...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2016 20:45:05 GMT -5
As I've said in another thread, I feel bad for Josh. In the fandom, fanfics especially, he gets a really bad rep. There have been a good number of fanfics where Josh was the straight-up villain doing intensely horrible things, or he was the person Kim was cheating on Ron/Shego/whoever with. Seriously, what did the poor guy do to deserve that sort of treatment? Tara's lack of characterization makes me sad. She seems like she'd be a unique bubbly character. Alas, all we really got is that she's bubbly, a bit ditzy, and doesn't judge people by looks. It'd be fun to tackle her if I could just stay focused writing-wise... Do you suffer from But First" Syndrome??? Like " I'll write about this, but first, lemme write about that!!!! If so, You're not alone. I have the same affliction. I'll draw this,, BUT FIRST, I'ma draw that...
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Post by neosaiyanangel on Mar 15, 2016 21:05:16 GMT -5
Nah, it's more that I get an idea mostly down, then get bored and switch because I've gotten enough down that people'll get what I'm going for.
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Post by buckmana on Mar 19, 2016 3:55:06 GMT -5
I always thought Ron and Tara were going to end up together. Sadly, it didn't happen, but I'd have liked to see them in a relationship all the same.
Putting Kim and Ron together never seemed right to me, I liked them better as friends then a couple.
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Post by christhecynic on Mar 19, 2016 7:18:43 GMT -5
Yeah, I actually liked in Emotion Sickness when Ron does his soul searching and decides that he doesn't want to date Kim because he wants to be best friends forever and dating would complicate and potentially endanger that. Plus I don't think he made a good boyfriend for Kim in season 4, if anything he seemed worse with Kim than he had been with Zita and he only was shown with Zita for a single episode (with the other Zita episode ending with them finally having an off-duty meeting that begins their relationship.)
Ron/Tara is my preferred Ron pairing, not that I have anything against Ron/Zita or Ron/Yori.
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Post by buckmana on Mar 26, 2016 3:36:38 GMT -5
They didn't mention it much, but I think a Zita/Felix pairing might have been intriguing to explore while the show was still running. After all, she's a gamer girl and he's a gamer guy, so they have some common ground.
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Post by christhecynic on Mar 26, 2016 13:52:08 GMT -5
Different types of games though, which in itself could have been interesting. They could go with Ron and Larry to [Kim voice] creepy conventions* ... IN COSTUME! [/Kim voice] but he's got a chainsaw on his arm and is wearing unremarkable 1990s clothes where she's in medieval garb with a glowing blue sword. There's a lot of potential for Felix-Zita, which is why I like the pairing in spite of it being thrown at the last minute with no reason, build up, or explanation. We didn't even know that Zita still lived in Middeton since we hadn't seen her since Virtu-Ron which was in sophomore year (probably not long after winter break given episode order) so that really came out of nowhere, but there's definitely potential so I go with it. - * Right now I'm in a house that's also hosting one of the presenters at Anime Boston. Kim would be horrified.
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Post by levi2000a on Apr 5, 2016 17:01:06 GMT -5
As I've said in another thread, I feel bad for Josh. In the fandom, fanfics especially, he gets a really bad rep. There have been a good number of fanfics where Josh was the straight-up villain doing intensely horrible things, or he was the person Kim was cheating on Ron/Shego/whoever with. Seriously, what did the poor guy do to deserve that sort of treatment? I feel I should answer to this, at least speaking for myself. First of all, I didn't think Josh was a good choice for Kim. Yes, he was intelligent, laid-back, handsome, very popular [having rejected invitations to the dance by Courtney Luke, Maria Rodriguez, Natasha Putin, Julia Roberts, (no relation,) and of course, Bonnie Rockwaller,] or as Kim described him, 'Golden.' Almost to good to be true. (When ever something is too good to be true, it usually is.) And yet, he always seemed a little self absorbed to me, waiting till the girl that seemed a little in awe of him managed to stutter out her invitation till he went to the dance with her. During the episode of Blush he was only mildly aware of Kim's predicament and thought it was just her normal reaction when she was around him, wanting to show off his own artwork instead of seeing that she was fading away fast. He was also the reason in a backhanded way that Kim was lying the both her family and best friend during the October 31st episode. So she could be at the party with him. Later on in Emotion Sickness we find out that Kim herself had decided they weren't a good fit for unknown reasons and both had moved on, him with Tara. And that was the last we ever heard about him. In STD Tara had moved on to be going with someone else to the prom. Only one other character had ever seemed to be 'to good to be true' for her and that was Eric. But he was made to be that way. Josh was a learning experience for Kim just as Zita was a learning experience for Ron. Both were acting outside their real characters to be who they thought they needed to be for their respective dates, trying to be someone they weren't.
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Post by neosaiyanangel on Apr 5, 2016 21:00:07 GMT -5
As I've said in another thread, I feel bad for Josh. In the fandom, fanfics especially, he gets a really bad rep. There have been a good number of fanfics where Josh was the straight-up villain doing intensely horrible things, or he was the person Kim was cheating on Ron/Shego/whoever with. Seriously, what did the poor guy do to deserve that sort of treatment? I feel I should answer to this, at least speaking for myself. First of all, I didn't think Josh was a good choice for Kim. Yes, he was intelligent, laid-back, handsome, very popular [having rejected invitations to the dance by Courtney Luke, Maria Rodriguez, Natasha Putin, Julia Roberts, (no relation,) and of course, Bonnie Rockwaller,] or as Kim described him, 'Golden.' Almost to good to be true. (When ever something is too good to be true, it usually is.) And yet, he always seemed a little self absorbed to me, waiting till the girl that seemed a little in awe of him managed to stutter out her invitation till he went to the dance with her. During the episode of Blush he was only mildly aware of Kim's predicament and thought it was just her normal reaction when she was around him, wanting to show off his own artwork instead of seeing that she was fading away fast. He was also the reason in a backhanded way that Kim was lying the both her family and best friend during the October 31st episode. So she could be at the party with him. Later on in Emotion Sickness we find out that Kim herself had decided they weren't a good fit for unknown reasons and both had moved on, him with Tara. And that was the last we ever heard about him. In STD Tara had moved on to be going with someone else to the prom. Only one other character had ever seemed to be 'to good to be true' for her and that was Eric. But he was made to be that way. Josh was a learning experience for Kim just as Zita was a learning experience for Ron. Both were acting outside their real characters to be who they thought they needed to be for their respective dates, trying to be someone they weren't. I'm not trying to say that Josh is a golden boy. He's just an artsy guy making his way through high school. An average guy doesn't deserve to be marked as an abusing sexual deviant who plotted with Drakken/Dementor/whoever to seduce Kim and purposely hurt Ron, then set things up so Ron could save the oh-so-sorry Kim from her position. Or, more often, Kim decides to cheat on Ron with Josh and Ron runs off to turn into a badass while Kim tearfully regrets her decision because Josh then suddenly cheats on her too. Josh, whose only real characterizations are 'artsy', 'laidback', and 'nice guy'. Where in that is he painted as a playboy? Because girls like him? As you stated, he turned down MANY girls, and him and Kim were CLEARLY done before he started dating Tara... As to your other point on being self-absorbed, you did notice that Kim was trying VERY hard to cover up her fading away? He noticed she was acting odd, but Kim kept playing it off. Kim was the one acting super interested in his art, too. Why wouldn't he try discussing it when Kim tried hard to make that a point of connection? And you're blaming him for KIM's behavior during the Halloween episode? If you remember, he thought Kim's treatment of everyone was pretty uncool, even going off with Ron in the double-costume to trick-or-treat for the rest of the night. You're basically blaming him for Kim's behavior because she wants him and does whatever she feels she has to to catch his attention, no matter how terrible of a person she's being while doing it. Basically, Josh is an actual basic average guy. He has character flaws, yeah, but none of them were to the point where he was a bad person... He was just a person. Sorry for blathering so much. I find the fandom attitude towards him irritating. The idea that some of the horrible treatment he gets is justified because he was kind of like Eric when Eric was playing Kim, because he was self-absorbed, or because he was a bad match with Kim strikes me wrong. I agree that Josh was a learning experience for Kim, just like any other dating sitch with any other people. Just kinda sucks that she didn't learn it well enough to not think more on Eric's supposed perfectness...
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Post by levi2000a on Apr 5, 2016 21:43:32 GMT -5
"An average guy doesn't deserve to be marked as an abusing sexual deviant who plotted with Drakken/Dementor/whoever to seduce Kim and purposely hurt Ron, then set things up so Ron could save the oh-so-sorry Kim from her position. Or, more often, Kim decides to cheat on Ron with Josh and Ron runs off to turn into a badass while Kim tearfully regrets her decision because Josh then suddenly cheats on her too."
I don't really recall saying this. I was speaking for myself and how I have handled him in one story but it was for myself only.
"And you're blaming him for KIM's behavior during the Halloween episode?" "In a backhanded way" yes. It was her lies and her decisions, but he was the reason.
In the stories I've read he, more often than not, was portrayed the way you've described him. "An artsy guy making his way through high school." That's why it is for shock value to turn him into something else. I've also read stories where Kim was the bad guy, Ron was the bad guy, on down the character list. (Don't really remember any where the Tweebs were though.)
In one story I'm working on it's Monique that is perceived to be the bad guy.
Josh ended up being a question mark that was never answered in the show other than he and Kim went their separate ways. I pointed out some reasons why I could turn him into something else.
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Post by neosaiyanangel on Apr 5, 2016 22:40:56 GMT -5
I don't really recall saying this. I was speaking for myself and how I have handled him in one story but it was for myself only. Very true. I'm sorry. I got too worked up by the seeming glossing over of most of the treatment of him that I lectured you on something you weren't saying. ...I have no idea how that makes him culpable in any way. That's kinda like saying that Paul Sheldon is at fault 'in a backhanded way' for Annie Wilkes' treatment of him in 'Misery'... I guess I'm just reading the wrong fanfics otherwise. I keep pretty much only seeing him as a cheater or a villain... Any recommendations for good fanfics where Josh is just an average guy of some sort?
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Post by levi2000a on Apr 5, 2016 23:10:02 GMT -5
"...I have no idea how that makes him culpable in any way. That's kinda like saying that Paul Sheldon is at fault 'in a backhanded way' for Annie Wilkes' treatment of him in 'Misery'."
I thought I went out of my way to not make him responsible. He was the reason but not responsible for her actions.
If a group of teens were on their way to attend a concert by their favorite band and they crashed on their way, how would the parents and friends of the teens feel about that band? The crash wasn't their fault. They didn't cause it. But they would always be remembered as the reason the teens were on that road to begin with.
I sent you a message with three link to stories with Josh in them. They are not about him as a primary character but he is involved.
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Post by neosaiyanangel on Apr 5, 2016 23:47:18 GMT -5
If a group of teens were on their way to attend a concert by their favorite band and they crashed on their way, how would the parents and friends of the teens feel about that band? The crash wasn't their fault. They didn't cause it. But they would always be remembered as the reason the teens were on that road to begin with. AH! I understand what you meant now. Interesting way for people to view it...
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